The FAA finally has to listen to us. FPVFC and FTCA recognized as CBO.

By | December 27, 2022

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00:00:00 – Why is this a big deal?
00:02:52 – So you're a CBO? Who cares?
00:05:20 – Where you want to fly, you should be able to fly there.
00:06:42 – The relationship between pilot and CBO
00:08:54 – One-size-fits-all rules don't work
00:13:49 – Is the FAA trying to side-step the rules?
00:18:48 – Can your house be a FRIA?
00:24:41 – Make the things we already do legal
00:30:58 – This is a foundation to build on


What is a CBO and why is it such a big Freaking deal that the fpv freedom Coalition and the flight test Community Association have just been recognized as A CBO by the FAA that's going to be the Topic of today's video there are two Things that a CBO does that I think are Most interesting in this conversation But we're going to be talking with my Guests Josh Bixler from the flight test Community Association and Dave Messina From the fpv freedom Coalition about Their perspective on this and the two Things that a CBO does are number one They write safety rules and those safety Rules are submitted to the FAA and then The FAA says yes we approve and then Individual Pilots can look at the safety Rules put out by a CBO and say I am Flying under these safety rules and this Is a big deal because until recently the Only organization that pretty much Everybody assumed was going to be a CBO Was the AMA and the AMA mostly Represents fixed-wing pilots flying at Traditional flying sites and that's not Really compatible the safety rules that They write are in many ways not ideal For fpv pilots flying at their house or At a park the fpv freedom Coalition and Flight test Community Association being Recognized as cbo's means that pilots Who don't want to fly under the AMA Safety rules don't have to just be

Breaking the rules in order to do the Kind of things that we have always done We can now point to these rules and say I'm following these rules instead of These rules instead of just I'm breaking The rules the other huge thing that a CBO can do is submit applications for Free up an FAA recognized identification Area and a free is a big deal because Ifria is a fixed site where you can fly Without being required to have remote ID On your aircraft and if free as we're Only traditional AMA Style flying fields Then fpv Pilots would just be legally Required to have remote ID on their Aircraft pretty much everywhere they Went but if you could Define your yard As a Fria your school uh School football Field as a Fria your local park as a Fria if you could Define anywhere you Normally wanted to fly as a Fria that Would really make it easier for people Who wanted to fly without remote ID but Didn't want to break the rules with the Fpv freedom Coalition and the flight Test Community Association as cbo's There are now two organizations who have Committed to try to get the kind of Places that we always fly that aren't Traditional flying fields to submit Those applications and try to get those Approved as free as in fact it's not in This video but I have already submitted The app application to have my house

Turned into a Fria through the FPC Freedom Coalition it's far more than Remote ID it was the trust test it was Free us it was CBO recognition and it Was also remote ID all those are a big Picture it wasn't just about remote ID And the reason why it's really important For people to know that was because we Need to answer solutions to all of it Not just because if it's all about Remote ID then Freya is like the Afterthought when really the way it was Supposed to originally roll out was you Know cbo's were recognized a Standardized test for people that was a Basic knowledge based test was supposed To be rolled out then Fria creation was To be done through the cbos that gives People the ability to fly freely to be Able to not have to worry about any Additional Hardware any cost burden and Then ultimately if those couldn't be met You're still required to fly it under a Elected cbo's guidelines safety Guidelines but then you have to put on a Broadcast module or have standard remote ID so you're a CBO who cares what does That net you what does that net people Who are interested in that and the in I Researched this as I was writing our Press release and it goes back to the Statute that the CBO now is the FAA is Required to go to the cbo's on topics of Structure and flight regulations for

Recreational and what the CBO is Supposed to be the organization that Approves freeze so those are two Benefits to people flying recreationally Of why do I care that these guys are Cbos and so wear a voice on regulations And we're also day-to-day operations and Educating on safety in stem but also Providing background or approval for Freeze and it's a big deal as I think What you're saying Dave is it's a big Deal because the structure that the FAA Has created is that these CBO sort of Form an umbrella and the FAA has to go Through them uh in order to accomplish Certain things and hobbyists who want to Fly can sort of get under that umbrella And operate in certain ways that they Couldn't if they were not under that Umbrella yeah and then the other Direction requirements have to flow from The community Through us into the FAA And what's great is the FAA has to Listen Do they though well Yeah you know it comes down to Individuals and we've you know we've got A number of fans and we have a couple of Detractors so it's you know like any Like any organization this is pretty Exciting because Dave with your focus on On fpv the fpv freedom Coalition and Josh with the flight test Community Association's Focus on uh well it

Actually makes me wonder Josh what's the Difference between what you guys are Doing in terms of your rules and Regulations versus what the AMA does so Let's do similar types of flying yeah That's a great question Um basically our main focus with the Ftca and also flight tests in general is Getting people into the hobby Um that's not going to be with you know Big turbine Jets that's not going to be With 700 class helis or pylon Racers We're not really competition heavy what We are our activity heavy experience Heavy exactly what Dave's holding up Right there you know that actually is a Poster child that plan is holding up as Well that teach kids as young as five Years old how to fly So the plan things That we designed the planes that we Teach off of the planes that we educate People around is very heavy and DIY very Heavy and entry level they're lighter They're slower they're basically what we Call Park pliers so it's not just I'm Going to buy an airplane I'm going to go To a club field I'm going to pay my dues To join that club I'm going to carry an Insurance policy and you know have a MMA Membership which then allows me to join That club all those things are Financial Burdens are logistical burdens flight Test really believes in where you want To fly as long as it's a safe open place

That you can fly you should be able to Fly there what's the sort of Relationship between uh people who want To fly legally right because of course There's always going to be people out There who say I don't care about all This I'm just going to do what I'm going To do and they're never going to catch Me if they catch me I don't care those People probably aren't watching this Video at this point they've already Tuned out but for people who want to fly Legally what's the relationship that the FAA sees between the individual pilots And the CBO like what are the Responsibilities and expectations that Flow sort of both directions the first Is safety education and so the the FAA Would say their single mandated safety And so we would say Um you know I think we're doing pretty Well and safety have had no fatalities So what are we what are we talking about And in our safety guidelines we tried to Major on things that had a lot of common Sense and practical be safe don't be Don't be silly then there's uh Beyond You know part of safety is also you know Flying in authorized airspace so Education on uh the rules of of the road And uh back from the community it's uh Approval of uh of Frias and to me that That's a good start Josh from there yeah Yeah exactly what David and our approach

Is we call friend on the field basically When someone comes they want to learn How to fly we take a very similar path That what general aviation is the safety Culture is woven into the education Um you know when you're building the Safety culture is about how not to get Burned with a glue gun and how to cut Yourself with a razor blade and things Like that once you get out to the field After you've built that airplane you're Learning about how to check to make sure You're flying in the right location how To make sure that you know the plane is Pre-flighted properly you know your prop Isn't loose your controls aren't Backwards your Center gravity is proper And then it's the culture of how do you Fly around other people Um making sure you don't fly over top of Each other all those things are written Into our safety guidelines but they're Also basically things that are Organically taught as someone learns how To fly it's not a it's not a bipolar Mentality here and even with the way David approaches it Um it's woven into how you do things and If you can engage people right off the Bat with with teaching that way suddenly The safety guidelines aren't so absurd Because they're practical and I think What I'm hearing is that the faa's Stated goal is to safety and when the

FAA sort of tries to enforce safety they Make these ones size fits all rules that May not really reflect what we're Actually doing on the ground because We're granted we're a tiny tiny Niche And the FAA is concerned about general Aviation as much as they are about Little RC planes but that by sort of Delegating some of that safety and Education down to the CBO level it lets People who are closer to the ground uh Make those rules and argue for those Rules And then once those rules are sort of Accepted then it sort of gets us a Little more uh flexibility and freedom To do the things that we want to do and Also yeah I absolutely agree and so good Examples of that are one of the Recommendations for our safety Guidelines in The Advisory circular 9157c was make sure that everyone can Fly their aircraft proficiently line the Site before they start flying fpv now You know for people who have flown RC Planes for decades not a big deal but That's maybe two or three percent of fpv Folks are like I do what so right I Wouldn't say I would fail that test Common sense is hover first on any new Build and then put the goggles on then Go yeah yeah I would like to hear more Concrete examples if you guys have them About out because I think a lot of the

Work that you guys does is sort of Behind the scenes and people don't Understand the things you're going to Bat for and the difference that it like What does it matter are there more Concrete examples of things you guys Fought for and ultimately God Uh in terms of you know rights and Things that we can do well one is uh We're still we're still in process and So as they would say in Texas we're Fixing to get there and that's uh Shielded operations and so shielded Operations from a common sense Perspective as well as the perspective In New Zealand is if you fly below a Natural structure or man-made structure Below the top of that you should be fine And within some reasonable lateral Distance of that structure and so we First got that uh we fbfc got that in Integrated into a A DAC tasking group so a drone advisory Committee tasking group back in 2021 it Then is uh throughout the Beyond visual Line of site Aviation rulemaking Committee and we know that there are Good discussions about shielded Operations uh in the FAA and the FAA Further uh let a grant of 323 thousand Dollars across five universities to Study the the veracity of shielded Operations so that's an example of Something that is really common sense it

Helps a ton uh and it's not there yet But that's something to help one aspect That we Um that we did have a significant Influence that did result in some Benefit was uh the uas facility maps and So they used to be a one degree by one Degree which is about a mile Square Their net then we halved that so one one Square now equals four squares That's a big deal and we can think about It from like tessellation you know I can Create a circle with quarters and a lot Better than I can so it allowed much More granular review plus we instituted A whole bunch of uh efforts on rework of The uas facility Maps things like check Next to the runway because no one flies Next to a Runway they fly off the ends Of a Runway so good Common Sense lots of Different organizations working on that Effort and we were definitely an Important part of that we are not one Size fits all and we certainly do not Want to have rules Beyond what's Required you know but what was quickly Kind of happened and which required also Very constant communication from both Ftca and ipbfc was saying hey we got to Educate you guys on how we need to Represent the community but we do not Want to give we ultimately don't want to End up with the safe safety regulations As the AMA which is I'm gonna I'm not

Gonna give you the exact number average Say 28 Pages 30 pages and ours is 10 our Should be 10 because guess what our our Activity only represents what should be 10. Um so there's lots of communication lots Of education and to the credit of the FAA they listen to us and that was a Really good thing to get that CBO Recognition now there's another topic That uh I think I'm not sure exactly how You guys want to approach it but it has To do with the FAA trying to sort of Bypass the normal rulemaking process Um and the the general version of it That I heard was that the F the rule Make so there's a rule making process They have to it's for all federal rules They have to submit it for comments and There's like a comment period where the Public can comment and then they have to Read the comments and respond to them And they're not just allowed to make Rules arbitrarily well a lot of people Feel like they did they do that but There's there's a process and uh when They started uh recognizing cbos one of The requirements was that the CBO had to Have a safety plan and I heard some suggestion that they were Basically trying to pass specific safety Rules by just not approving cbo's that Didn't have the exact safety rules that They wanted

Uh is that is that right so we have Three cbo's approved right now we know That there are five more in the works We've reached out we don't know who they Are and so this can be very telling to See if we have if there is a broad uh Spectrum of safety guidelines across the Eight cbo's that finally get approved The in the statute so in the Congress Told the FAA so this is Law and you have The a recreational operator has to Follow these guidelines one of the Things as you just said one of the Things that they stipulated was you must Comply with safety guidelines so then The FAA with AC 9157c went way overboard On on all of these different recommended Guidelines which the moment we put it Into a CBO safety guidelines it goes From recommended to required and right They just went around the uh the rule Making the NPR Ram the whole public Comment process So you know we're we've we've cried foul We've spoken to the FAA about this uh Right now you know we know that the FAA You know does not make a lot of changes Right remote ID hasn't changed since the Final rule we don't expect the advisory Uh circular uh 9157c to change But we're hopeful that we can see some Uh fewer rules uh you know quote rules Get constituted into various CBO safety Guidelines and so we'll see evidence of

This as we see the difference in the the Various safety guidelines well a good Example of this is night flying okay Night flying does not exist and the Fpvfc safety guidelines Now what does that mean it doesn't exist We didn't write it we didn't ask for it We didn't write it yes so the person Flying under the fpvfc safety guidelines Wouldn't be able to fly at night Actually they would because if it's not Stated you can oh whereas the FAA Recommended that you have rules for Flying at night which means that lots of Things you know so they recommend Restrictions not only the restrictions Were a uh a anti-collision light of uh Three statute miles plus lights that Indicate Direction and vector or Position and vector or orientation and Vaccination altitude yeah so you know Our response to that was well you know So we drafted a whole piece of it had we Been asked about it so that we could Have an appropriate response we were Never asked about it so we did not Include it So we'll see over time if we are asked To include that if we are then you know To your point we'll see an issue with The the point of one size does not fit All and the one size does not fit all is An FAA agreed to position on safety so We will be working that issue if if it

Comes up that way well that's uh that's Exciting Um uh I first Heard this story and thought If all of the cbos are required to have The same 28 not required recommended to Have the same 28-page safety guidelines As the AMA then what do we really have It for those of us who would like to Comply with the law what do we really Have nothing but if if organizations Like fpvfc and flight test Community Association are being recognized as Cbo's then that hopefully indicates that There will be sort of this individual Voice for these different types of Flying situations where we'll actually Have some influence and actually have Sort of a voice in the room Um Let's talk about Frias and remote ID Sure okay remote ID In short means that to fly your aircraft You have to broadcast your certain Information including the position of The aircraft and it means that people Who build their own aircraft are going To have to put a little transceiver Transponder on which may cost as much as 200 And will add weight especially for very Small foamy aircraft Josh uh it would be Very difficult people don't like this The alternative one of the Alternatives

Is to fly at a free F uh if recognized What does this phrase stand for the FAA Recognized identification area and that Means that you don't have to do that Right but only a CBO can designate what Isn't isn't a Freya with the FAA Approval with the faa's approved and so This means that you guys can now start Designating Frias Yes and that was uh that was for us Specifically one of the biggest things That was the most uh kept us awake at Night the most we don't want people to Have a financial burden I mean we just Show them how to build an airplane for Under 20 bucks yet you're talking about The the need for remote ID frios are Incredibly important to flight test on The ftca because that gives people the Ability to build immature build aircraft Fight freely without putting any extra Equipment on Um that's something that we really want To you know put 110 into now that we're At CBO is is given to someone if they're In their backyard they fly with their Friends and family We want them to be able to put a Fria in Their backyard so they don't have any Extra burden uh incredibly important for Us um whoa whoa hang on hang on uh a Free when when you say the word Fria I Think I'm thinking oh you know obviously Like your flight Park is going to be a

Free uh a flight field a Freya in your Backyard Yeah is that for real do you fly in your Backyard yeah uh no no wait no no I'm Not I'm class G but I don't wanna don't Wanna admit no I I do obviously I do Everybody does here's here's the reality Is you want people to be able to do Exactly what they were doing Tomorrow as it were yesterday and if That's flying in your backyard with your Friends and family that's what we want To see that that is why I believe that The fpvfc and ftca represent the the Overwhelming majority of hobbyists and Also the up-and-coming hobbyists young Kids young adults people in schools stem Programs Etc is because they need to be Able to fly right where they are the the Notion of going to a club joining the Club drive into the club that is um that Is very old and outdated Um for many many people and I'm not Saying that it's not for everybody but Um if you're flying yesterday in your Backyard and it's meets the requirements To be able to make it for you both I Believe both identities want to help Make that free yet happen and I I think You guys are going to be overwhelmed With requests uh yeah that's what we Anticipate and the the way that Josh has Positioned this is in my view you're Brilliant and very important so let's

Try to establish afria and if we can't If we absolutely cannot do that okay Then remote ID yeah and and with that Said Dave um you know it is safe to say Flight tests will have remote ID Solution uh that will meet the Requirements and that people will be Able to use and the best part is it's Designed in the US and it's made in the U.S so we're going to be able to provide That solution if you can't get it for You or you want to be able to be Transient and go fly at different places We'll have a remote ID solution for you Yeah well I think if anybody can come up With a remote ID solution that meets the Needs of of our type of RC hobbyist uh Than its flight test thank you so that's Exciting that's exciting me to say that Thank you yeah well there are two there Are a couple of stipulations on the Fria That are really important and this this Is part of the will we be overwhelmed or Not one of the stipulations is you have To have access in some way to the fixed Site that you're submitting as a Fria And so either you own it or you've got Permission to fly lie there so that so It can't be like a bando or a Construction site exactly and it's you Know if it's a park And then you have to get the permission Probably of the municipality right the Park would have to like apply to the

Afria the other thing that I mentioned Was fixed site is a a temporal aspect of This so is you know is it a is it Permanent So for events we've been whining to the FAA for years now about you have to be Able to support us for fpv racing and Racing sites stand up and get shut down So what they did is they put a Proviso In that we can submit uh in nine with 90 Days uh before the event and it's like That sorry that doesn't work I mean if We can get Lance approval you know Automatically What's the issue if it's you know you Know Grand if there's any question on Ownership of the property or you know Fine you know just like no you know that Should be just a kick out but you know If it's cut and dry you know a good Example is Edgewater this is the the Property that uh that Josh has uh for Flight test and they've already had Races there so wouldn't it be great to Say uh this Friday you know on Saturday We've got a race coming up great we want It to be a Fria so that we don't have to Add remote ID broadcast modules to the Erasers great yeah yeah and it's very Sensible right you're gonna fly in this Tiny three-dimensional parallel piped I I like the the perspective that you Guys are expressing uh because even for People who say I I don't care about this

I don't care about complying with the Law I'm just going to do my thing they Are going to benefit from the work that You guys are doing because your goal is To make the things we already do to make As many of the things we already do Legal right or or compliant with Regulation uh and so people who do those Things anyway Fewer of them are going to be in Violation whether it matters or not of Course remains to be seen Um I really like that approach yeah try To try to make it frictionless try to Make it understandable and approachable For kids so that they can comply Well and hopefully a lot of the there There have been some voices who've said This remote ID thing this regulation It's too much I'm out And uh hopefully you know that message Can change To be more like you can do the things You want to do right and if it's Recreational it's one broadcast module Across all of your aircrafts you know Those of us who fly recreationally have A couple more than one or two model Aircraft they breed like rabbits yep we Got 10 000 plus kids right now doing ft Stem imagine all of a sudden comes along The burden that every one of those Students has to have their own remote ID Solution

That's terrifying that's just going to Kill everything and of course people Have the right to say I will not comply But we owe it to them to give them a Path to be compliant to do it safely and To do it as economically as possible Yeah non-compliance is in some ways the Last resort Um uh I don't maybe not everybody would Agree with that some people would say Well non-compliance with something I Think to be immoral or wrong is is the First choice I guess I respect that but Um a lot of people would say look if I Can comply Without putting myself out I will and It's it's the only problem the real Problem here is that the rules being Imposed are so unrealistic and Draconian And prohibit so many of things that we Have done safely for so long that I Don't respect the rules And it's beautifully said yeah yeah and It's not you know practical we know it's Practical and what's not I mean uh how Many people they race up Beyond a four Cell battery you know where I'm going With this yep Um practical rules for the activity that You're doing Um is incredibly important and it's not Practical to be able to tell someone When they're building a 20 film airplane That you need to put technology on

That's going to be you know broadcasting Your location it's far more practical to Tell them hey here's how we can put free Us all over the place and I do believe That's where the ftca kind of stands Apart from the AMA where I think their Number one goal is really to establish Where their Club sites are where we Don't care where you are if you can Legally put a Freya in your backyard if You can legally put a Freya at where you Fly currently you know whether you own It or you have permission from the owner We want to help you get there and my Hope is that there's thousands and Thousands of free as all over the Country and then when when a quad race Comes I mean we already work great with Fpvfc we can work together to make sure That those Flex locations can be flexed To serve both communities really well Well uh I've joked ever since uh free as Were first mentioned I've joked haha Maybe I can use my position as a a big Influencer in the world of fpv to get my House declared to Freya and then what About all the little people well it Turns out it looks like it hopefully Will be for as many of the little people As possible Flight we need to serve you that's that There's no little people or big people I Know you're having fun with that but but Um That Should Be The Stance of the FAA

It's definitely The Stance of the two FB Or cbo's that you're talking to right Now there is no Us in them there's People that love flight that want to use It as a tool to better people's lives on Their own and um and that needs to be Served that Vision needs to be served And trust me in this time and day when There's gonna be 640 000 jobs that being Met they need to get out of the way and Let us do our job yeah I believe that They finally doing so amazing that What's a great that's a great sentiment Sentiment uh so do you guys Is it too early yet to like Point people To a web page where they can submit Their address and have you guys start Processing paperwork to turn them into It for by the way I have to point out Individuals do not need to comply with Remote ID until September 2023. right so In fact If your house isn't a Freya you can Still fly there without remote ID yeah With a self-built drone just to be clear Yep um but you may as well get the ball Rolling right Yes yes and yes there is and at the uh So we um if you search on uh FAA CBO you Can find the site in the dashboard and We can get you a link uh that uh where You can submit a request to be a Freya Um interestingly the uh the website the Way it's working right now is you can

Request a free for a fixed location not An event if you are a recreational flyer You do not have to be a CBO and it go And then and part of the application is You must stipulate which cbo's Guidelines you're going to use Okay what we are talking to the FAA and Asking the question we thought that you Were going to funnel this through us What if a recreational flyer submits an Application directly to the FAA what Part of the process would you like us to To take So we're that that's an unknown and so We're you know this is you know part of The startup and uh you know so it would Not surprise us if you know it's it Changes and all submissions have to go Through us and that that's what we Anticipated now I I can't help but Notice you keep saying recreational And um I almost none of the flights that I do are recreational they're almost all 107 flights how does that relate to me And freya's and remote ID Am I screwed uh how do you guys want to Want to wrap this up we've been going For about an hour I don't want to take Too much of your time what kind of a Note do we want to go out on Josh my Opinion would be that this is not the we Got there yay but this is actually the Foundation that we now get to build on So in my opinion it's uh yay you know we

Are now cbos we get to start doing the Work that we are passionate about doing And our first our first line of defense Is establishing for me is for us Um and then as as we get free as Established and stuff obviously we're Going to be making sure remote ID and Those kind of things are answered in a Way that is not going to impact the the Community and the hobby too badly and I Would add that um With all of the regulation gorp that We've been talking about we're grounded In common sense I built this and flew it On Saturday yes it did fly looks awesome Beautifully and I had a minor role in This That Flies just under 100 miles an hour And uh the design of it is available on Park flyer International for free and so I helped design and build and fly and Have been doing it for uh for decades so All of the fpvfc core team fly build and We are steeped in common sense and That's what we're trying to do is create Frictionless abilities as Josh put it we Want you to be able to do what you're Doing yesterday tomorrow as well And I I uh I appreciate the work that You guys are doing uh a I hear stories That uh that boil down to This is a huge bureaucratic process with So many moving parts

And you know it's one thing to go stand Outside the faa's headquarters and pick It which is a very big visible thing It's one thing to well you know file a Lawsuit which is visible and has has Some effect but there is a much less Glamorous uh sort of making of the Sausage that happens and I I hear people Sometimes say you know what are these Guys doing for us uh and I think what You what I from my perspective you guys Are there sort of in that bureaucratic Mess sitting in meetings taking phone Calls making phone calls finding people Arguing and uh just playing that game And uh it's nice to see some recognition Of that by having uh you both be Recognized as CBO and now sort of having An official position to start sort of Shaping this in a more direct way so Thank you guys for the work that you do Um I'm gonna put links links to both Your websites uh people can join people Can donate and I'm sure that's very much Appreciated Um Dave Messina Josh Bixler thank you so Much thank you brother thank you